Instagram cofounder on Mark Zuckerberg

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February 13, 2012
6:51 PM

Matt Cohler
so, not surprisingly, zuck pinged me to say "i'm not sure if this is a good idea yet, but i think maybe facebook should buy instagram, what do you think?" i obviously want to discuss with you before i reply to him

Kevin Systrom
got it
you know him better than I do
a) will he go into destroy mode if I say no
b) will he understand if we choose to raise instead
c) will he understand that I don't want to shutter the product and that doesn't align with what FB does with companies

Matt Cohler
a) probably (and probably also if we just don't engage at all)
b) no, he'll go harder into destroy mode then
c) what i think he would most likely want to see is for instagram to turn into a stand-alone mobile facebook photos app, like beluga turned into facebook messenger
(re c he hasn't indicated anything to me at all there, i'm just speculating)

Kevin Systrom
I thought they were already working on something internally for a long time
well what's our goal here then

Matt Cohler
i could see that merging into instagram

Kevin Systrom
fair enough
are we sure we can't downplay our hand
say we're focused on pretty photos and an open name space and we're not sure how that fits in?
I'm riffing here

Matt Cohler
our goal depends on what you want to do. if you're actually interested in considering selling at the right price, then i would (slowly) talk with him and try to talk with twitter in parallel. (do not slow down the series b discussions in any event.) if you are of the mind "i don't want to sell at any price" then we need to figure out how to shut this down with minimal damage. i think that means playing it out REALLY slowly with him.
yeah, downplaying our position could be a way to play it out really slowly in the latter scenario

Kevin Systrom
well trying to focus on the questions an hesitations he's already having (pretty photos, namespace, open)
I'm not interested really - even at the right price I don't think so

Matt Cohler
ok then we should figure out how to shut it down

Kevin Systrom
I think so

Matt Cohler
any ideas? downplaying our position is a good thought but he's way too smart for "oh never mind little old us, we're just pretty pictures"

Kevin Systrom
it's a little bit crazy but I don't think they go away as an option in the future
sure I'd want to be smarter than that too

Matt Cohler
here’s one idea: i could tell him "i don't think it makes a ton of sense and i think if you start down that path you risk a bidding war with twitter and google for this, whereas if you leave it alone it'll probably just go its own way"

Kevin Systrom
well my q is why would he ask you knowing it would get to me

Matt Cohler
ie facebook is better with an independent instagram than witha n instagram that's part of twitter or google
it's a way of approaching you indirectly. smart.

Kevin Systrom
yep

Matt Cohler
of course if i make the "leave instagram alone for facebook's sake" argument, he will conclude that it's best to crush instagram. i guess there's not that much that can be done about that though.

Kevin Systrom
hah
unless we figure out how to show that insta is pushing lots of content in and that a good thing
but he already knows what small % goes in given press articles
and we are going to have overlap in features
or you could respond and get more info
like try to understand why he's thinking abt it
"that depends on why you might think its a good idea and bad idea, I can help give pros and cons"
then we can craft the approach rather than guessing

Matt Cohler
yeah that could make sense. but i doubt he'll tell me his full rationale. he already told me that he thinks it's bad for anybody else to control posting of photos onto fb at large scale (keep that between us please), but i think there's more to it
i suspect that what he's really worried about is twitter.
if twitter and instragram became one company it would make life more difficult for facebook.

Kevin Systrom
everything is btw you and I

Matt Cohler
and instagram is a more natural fit for twitter as a product.
yup

Kevin Systrom
I'd agree on that hunch
given jack and I having coffee tues
and [REDACTED] drinks tomorrow

Matt Cohler
why are you meeting with [REDACTED] directly if you're not serious about doing something with twitter

Kevin Systrom
well - he needs to know we're not interested
and they haven't said anything

Matt Cohler
how's this as a reply to mark: "why do you think it's a good idea? i've never heard kevin express interest in selling, and the product seems pretty different to me. i actually think instagram can do well as a stand-alone brand advertising business fwiw."
(he told me he thinks instagram can't be a good independent business because of how much it's about photos, but i think that's partially posturing.)
the only reason to include my last sentence is to remove his fear that there will be a twitter deal

Kevin Systrom
to be clear they've said nothing - and I want to maintain a good relationship so I think avoiding him isn't a good idea when I can just say n
no
that is unless you think there's a better way to turn them down
and also I thought we wanted some leverage of interest for fundraising

Matt Cohler
yeah i think that's fine

Kevin Systrom
I think instead of product seems diff - you may pt out how the existing structure (following and namespace) doesn't mesh well
or would make it hard to be successful inside
successful acq

Matt Cohler
sure

Kevin Systrom
but again he's prob thinking more that he doesn't want twitter to have it
less that it will be successful inside

Matt Cohler
my only concern with that approach is it signals "this is a better fit for twitter". maybe better to leave it more vague.why do you think it's a good idea? i've never heard kevin express interest in selling, and the product seems pretty different to me. i actually think instagram can do well as a stand-alone brand advertising business fwiw
oops never mind everything after "vague" above, i hit paste by accident

Kevin Systrom
got it
ya I hear that
I mean honestly he seems like a guy with a clear sense of what he wants

Matt Cohler
umm yeah

Kevin Systrom
and I think getting more info is all we can do
I don't know that we'll be able to sway
in fact what worries me abt the response is that we signal that we're trying too hard to avoid it

Matt Cohler
any thoughts on how to not do that?

Kevin Systrom
I don't know if we need the stand alone biz thing I think

Matt Cohler
ok. so just this: "why do you think it's a good idea? i've never heard kevin express interest in selling, and the product seems pretty different to me."

Kevin Systrom
"I've never heard Kevin express interest in selling. the product seems pretty different than what you're going after. why do you think it's a good idea?
q at the end?
I dont care abt the middle sentence
meaning I was wordsmithing

Matt Cohler
sure that's fine

Kevin Systrom
ok why don't we see where that goes
I do think we have to be careful with twitter conversations so he doesn't get conflicting repts

Matt Cohler
yep

Kevin Systrom
don't want to make any enemies

Matt Cohler
for sure
but mark doesn't react emotionally, he reacts based on competition
just sent him that language, we'll see what he says

Kevin Systrom
ok good
that's why i think signaling no competition is good

Matt Cohler
yeah, but he's too smart to take our word for it ; )
i do think the biggest hot button for him is the possibility of a sale to twitter

Kevin Systrom
bottom line I don't think we'll ever escape the wrath of mark

Matt Cohler
haha

Kevin Systrom
it just depends how long we avoid it
that's why we need to raise 70 build an army and keep our heads down

Matt Cohler
one thing to consider is doing some PR around how much we love facebook platform and how awesome it is to be a complimentary player to facebook

Kevin Systrom
it will come
when? I don't know
that's a good idea

Matt Cohler
yeah i think that's a key project to point our pr person at
we need to make it as hard as possible for fb to mess with our ability to get distribution on the platform

7:40 PM

Matt Cohler
mark just replied and asked if anybody else has tried to buy instagram. i think the best reply is "i really shouldn't step over boundaries and talk about that, but the answer is not yet."
is that cool?
oh and then he also asked "should i just talk to kevin directly"? i think he's going to do that anyway, so i should tell him "yes"

Kevin Systrom
isn't the first part contradictory with the second?

Matt Cohler
yes it is

Kevin Systrom
yah tell him to talk to me and that I haven't mentioned anyone

Matt Cohler
but it signals that this won't be a precedent for my telling him that stuff in the future
ok will do

Kevin Systrom
ok
then we should talk about how to respond

Kevin Systrom
he will reach out to me
I've avoided chatting once and failed

Matt Cohler
yeah. let's see what he says.


[This document is from the House Judiciary Antitrust Subcommittee (2020).]

Twitter link

Further context from Insider: “One such message exchange is between two individuals whose names are redacted, but whom the Judiciary Committee's website identifies as Instagram cofounder Kevin Systrom and Benchmark investor Matt Cohler…” (July 29, 2020)

Previously: Mark Zuckerberg on acquisition strategy (February 27, 2012)

Previously: Mark Zuckerberg on competition (April 9, 2012)

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